I believe the reason for Nick to use the word holocaust to describe the events of chapter eight was almost his way of saying that all the killings or murders that happened were that of innocent people that were wrongly accused and punished for things they didn't do. When Gatsby was killed by Wilson Gatsby was being punished for killing Myrtle but he wasn't the one who actually did. It was his car but it was Daisy who killed her. Wilson killed himself because if it wasn't for him torturing Myrtle and making her life a living hell when he found out she was cheating he wouldn't have made he run out to the road and get killed because she thought she saw Tom to save her. And then Myrtle was killed because she was trying her best to be saved from the hurt and pain of her mistakes that she was killed by running out in the street. All of the characters killed were all innocent in some way and had no right to kill each other which made it a form of holocaust and why he said it was complete because all parties killed where innocent and involved in each other's murders.
Jordan, I have to disagree with you. I do not think that any of the characters in the book are innocent. Myrtle, Daisy, Tom and Gatsby all commit adultery with the full knowledge of what they are doing is wrong. They are all somehow involved in the events that lead to Gatsby’s and Myrtle’s deaths. Before Myrtle was killed, I don’t think she was going into the street to talk to Gatsby and Daisy about the pain of her mistake. There is no evidence that she was sorry for her crimes prior to the crash. She may not have deserved to die at that moment, but she was aware that all she did was immoral. Gatsby also knew what he did was wrong and he attempted to avoid it. Nick told him that he should go somewhere else for a while in case someone traced his car and he refused. He could have prevented his death, but he knew he was not innocent and let the events play out as such. Again, he may not have deserved to die then, but he knew his actions would cause some type of ruckus or he would not have had his butler stay up to bring him messages.
I'm going to have to agree with Lizzy on this. With this quote, the reader immediately knows that Gatsby's life, and story, have come to an end. The main significance of this quote lies in the fact that Gatsby, the focus of the novel, has been killed. It does not lie in the fact that the characters are all innocent. They have all done something to prove that they are in fact not angels.
I also agree with Lizzy because as she states in her numerous points, none of these characters are innocent. Therefore I do not believe that the use of the word haulocost was syblolic of the many innocent killed. Those killed in the novel were not murdered out of innocence. The motivation for their deaths was based off of wrongful actions they had committed.
Nick uses the term "holocaust" because it was a spree of death to the people around him and even love. Daisy killed Myrtle, in return Tom told on Gatsby and Wilson killed Gatsby then himself. It was like a chain reaction. It was termed holocaust by Nick because to him I believe he thinks that the wrong people died, he knows the truth that Gatsby is innocent and he knows that the Myrtle thing was cause because of Tom having driven the yellow car earlier in the evening. It wasn't meant to happen that way but like the holocaust even the innocent die, for no good reason. I'm sure if we had our choice the only person that would have died would have been Tom, but yet he doesn't seem as such a horrible person to me anymore. I had mentioned how I see that love has died as well, the innocent love Gatsby has for Daisy now gone and left to her memory, the thoughtless love Tom had for Myrtle now gone as well, and the love Nick had for Jordan will never bee said. All innocent things that lead to the destruction of innocent people.
I agree with you Jordan. All the wrong people were the ones who paid the consequences for the sins of Tom and Daisy. The use of the word holocaust pointed out that innocent lives were lost as a result of the spiritually and moral corrupt. "The holocaust was complete" was stated by Nick referring to how all the sinful actions have come to an end. The lives of Daisy and Tom returned relatively normal, as if unobstructed by Gatsby and Wilson.
I agree with you when you speak of the death of innocence and love, and how it has no reason to die. Sin is the main cause that results in the suffering and loss found in this chapter. Also, I see Tom as the reason for all of these incidents. Tom is definitely not a good person. If he hadn't been cheating with Myrtle, Daisy would have never gone to Gatsby, and if Tom hadn't told Wilson about the car, Gatsby wouldn't be dead.
Holocaust means 'whole-burning" in Greek. I believe it could also refer to the ashes. because of all the senseless killing of innocent people, God and morality was clouded with ash.
Nick ends the chapter with the sentence, “… the holocaust was complete” (Fitzgerald 162) I believe that although it holds significance, it also is a simple concept. The Holocaust was the unjust death of millions of people. Nick decided to use that exact word to portray the deaths as a tragedy, something that should not have happened. Gatsby should not have died, but he did, it was a surprise and very unfair, much like the holocaust. Nick is trying to capture the innocence in the death, and that is why he phrased it the way he did.
I agree Caitlin. Gatsby was an innocent person and he died due to someone else's problem in life. The people in the holocaust did the same. The Jews did nothing wrong yet they were killed because of Hitler.
Please note that the Great Gatsby was written before World War II
Joe is right, The Great Gatsby was written before World War II but Fitzgerald could have been talking about the mad murder of the people of Romani, which was before World War II. Just a little history face for everyone. But I do agree with what Caitlin said, the chapter was a killing of all the innocent people who had not done anything wrong and were falsely accused as in both holocausts.
This is very interesting Joe and Amber, I didnt think about the time frame, i just assumed that this was referring to the known event of the holocaust. However, i dont feel that this information neccessarly changes the meaning of the word. It just changes the fact that there were certain groups involved, but the idea is the same.
I have agree with Rachel on this comment because the information doesn't change the meaning of the holocaust. However, I thought it was interesting when Nick related to the events happening around him as being a holocaust if this story did take place before WWII
While Fitzgerald may have connected the brutal deaths of Myrtle, Wilson and Gatsby to any mass murder that has occurred in the early 1900s, I believe Fitzgerald is mainly referring to the unjust murder of Gatsby and the harshness behind it. The term holocaust means destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, and within the past two chapters there has been a total of three deaths. I also believe that Nick could have been referring to the figurative deaths of all the characters, whose dreams, hopes, and last ounces of happiness have been destroyed. Gatsby's dream of a life with Daisy is "dead", Wilson's dream of moving away with Myrtle is destroyed, and characters such as Nick, Tom and Jordan are left unhappy by the end of this chapter. The essence of these characters had already been destroyed, therefore, their physical deaths indicated the finality of the corruption, which is what I believe Nick is referring to when he says "the holocaust was complete".
Great strand. Good comments! Has anyone considered that in order for it to be a holocaust, the victims must have something in common other than death? What is it?
I don't feel that Nick was necessarily referencing the death of innocent lives when he used the word holocaust. This book was written pre-World War II, and so Fitzgerald must have been using the more generic definition of the word; essentially just mass destruction. Wilson may have been innocent, but Gatsby and Myrtle most certainly were not, so I think the harsh word was more meant to encompass all the damage that has been caused this point, and how now it "was complete."
Fitzgerald chose to use the word "holocaust" to mainly describe Gatsby's death as well as the death of innocence and morals. Both Gatsby and Myrtle were trying to amend their past and do what is right, but they ended up getting brutally killed in the process. While it was Daisy who killed Myrtle, Gatsby took the blame because his love for Daisy clouded his vision. Daisy just let him take it, and continued to live somewhat happily with Tom. Because Gatsby did this to protect the girl he loved (and thought loved him back), he ended up being the person dying, when all along it should have been Daisy or at least Tom (two of the more corrupt characters) who should have died. After the death of Myrtle and then of Gatsby, the innocent had died, thus "the holocaust was complete." (Fitzgerald 162).
I agree with you Amanna. I feel like "holocaust" is also used because it describes the death of Gatsby and the death of all the innocent characters in this chapter.
Amanna, I like what you said. I said almost the same exact thing. But what you said that I did not and also liked was that Fitzgerald chose to use the world "holocaust" to describe the deaths of the innocence and morals. When I read I did not think of that. And now that you brought it up it makes a lot of sense. Also I like your thought and what you said about Gatsby taking the blame for Daisy "Gatsby did this to protect the girl he loved (and thought loved him back), he ended up being the person dying, when all along it should have been Daisy or at least Tom (two of the more corrupt characters) who should have died." I agree with that completely! And it kind of makes me wonder why Fitzgerald chose not to kill the ones who were more corrupt. Was it because it is always the innocent that die or for another reason that only Fitzgerald knows?
Amanna I agree. in the end of this story and the holocaust, both the innocent people died and paid the consequences instead of Tom and Daisy. Tom and Daisy are nothing but filthy pleasure seekers. They both managed to bring sorrow to others to gain their own satisfaction. Even Nick, one not usually judgmental, feels that “they were careless people, Tom and Daisy-they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness…” (Fitzgerald 179).
By definition, the term holocaust means the destruction or slaughter on a mass scale. I believe Nick uses the term "holocaust" to emphasize the violent deaths of the characters. Myrtle's life was "violently extinguished, knelt in the road and mingled her thick dark blood with the dust" (137). However, while Myrtle's death was an accident, Gatsby and Wilson's were intentional. Gatsby was shot in his pool, and while his body sunk in the water, Nick sees "a thin red circle in the water" (162), indicating that Gatsby was either shot in the head or the chest. It is not until then Nick says, "It was after we started with Gatsby toward the house that the gardener saw Wilson's body a little way off in the grass, and the holocaust was complete" (137). I believe Nick's use of the term "holocaust" in this particular chapter was to literally emphasize the violent deaths of the characters, but to define the brutality of Gatsby's murder as cruel and unjust. However, I believe that Nick used the term "holocaust" to emphasize the figurative deaths of these characters as well. The dreams the characters once had figuratively "die" in chapter seven and eight. During the fight between Gatsby and Tom in chapter seven, Daisy "[drew] further and further into herself...and only the dead dream fought on as the afternoon skipped away..." (134). I believe that this is a crucial point in the novel because the the characters, especially Daisy and Gatsby realize that they cannot hold onto the dream of being together, which was their only source of happiness. Wilson's dream of moving away with his wife is destroyed when she is killed. Other characters such as Tom (who is left with a dead mistress and a wife who doesn't love him), Nick and Jordan are left unhappy by the end of chapter eight. The entire world as these characters know it has fallen apart and any amount of hope and happiness for them and their dreams has been destroyed. The deaths of Myrtle, Gatsby and Wilson only finalize the mass destruction, which is why Nick says "the holocaust is complete".
Fitzgerald ends the chapter with "...and the holocaust was complete," (Fitzgerald 162). I believe he does this because when he refers to the deaths of the Wilsons, he is trying to tell us that they are innocent people. They did nothing wrong and are being wrongly punished for it. Like in the Holocaust when the Jews were killed for just being Jewish, the Wilsons were killed for no reason. I also think it refers to how they were killed. Myrtle was killed by getting run over by a car. The wreck was so bad that it ripped her chest open. Like in the Holocaust, the people were not killed with respect. They were killed brutally just like Myrtle.
I agree with you Mackenzie. I think that Fitzgerald ends with this statement to signify Gatsby's death, and how it was closely related to a lot of the Jewish peoples deaths. Gatsby was innocent, but yet he was still blamed for the wreck. Yes, it was his car, but he was not driving it. I also agree with how you said that people were not killed with respect. There were a lot of harsh killings, and the Nazis did not really care about the suffering of the Jews. The holocaust is known for the way that the Jews were treated, and this is also seen in parts of The Great Gatsby.
I agree with you, Mackenzie. All the wrong people died and were the ones who paid the consequences instead of Tom and Daisy. I feel that Tom and Daisy were lousy people; they both managed to ruin someone else's life, and simply did not care. Even Nick feels that “they were careless people, Tom and Daisy-they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness…” (Fitzgerald 179). I also think that using the word ‘holocaust’ points out that the innocent lives that were lost as a result of the moral corruption due to one’s selfishness. Daisy and Tom's life returns to normal, as if unbothered by Gatsby and Myrtle's death. I also like your point about not being killed with respect, it seems to stand out more to me, as it only enhances me to form a more negative opinion about Daisy and Tom.
I agree with you that Nick uses the word “holocaust” to describe the horrible events that happened in the book. I also think that he uses the word to explain that all the people that died were innocent and didn’t deserve to die. Holocaust means a mass slaughter of people and that is what happened. Myrtle, Wilson, and Gatsby all died. When Gatsby died, it “was complete” (170). Everything was over. Nick had no more reason to write and everything that was happening because of Gatsby came to an end. People just went on with their lives.
I agree with what Mackenzie is saying. I think it has to do a lot with the brutal things going on in the story, and the Volgure images that are suppose to be described as "holocaust"
This book was written before the Genocide of the Jews, or what we today call the Holocaust, so I do not think that was Fitzgerald's point. However, the literal meaning of holocaust is a destruction of life, and because of Daisy's actions especially, 3 lives literally get destroyed and 4 others heavily effected. When Nick says the Holocaust was over, I believe he means that the worst was done. However, I still agree with many of your points.
Fitzgerald uses the word "holocaust" to emphasize the meaning of Gatsby's death. The word holocaust means a mass destruction on a large scale. Gatsby affected so many people in the novel that his death is going to cause an extreme impact on the characters. Even Nick, who earlier in the chapter stated that he "disapproved of [Gatsby] from beginning to end" (Fitzgerald 153) was affected by the presence and absence of Gatsby, or the story would not have come from his point of view.
I agree with you Lizzy, but I also think that the word holocaust was used to show the ending of love. The love between Daisy and Gatsby was ended completely when Gatsby was shot and killed. So yes, you are right but I also think there is more to the meaning. There is no more love between the two because of the death of Jay just like what the goal of the holocaust was to end something someone thought was wrong.
I agree with Ali's comment here. I like how she used the word Holicaust to describe the ending love between Jay and Daisy. All of the love was gone when Gatsby was killed jut like in the Holocaust, the ending of something that someone didn't think was right.
The way the word holocaust is used in the text is a type of sacrifice. Throughout the entire novel, Fitzgerald uses Gatsby as a Christ-like figure. Christ died on the cross as an innocent man to save the people, and Gatsby died as in innocent man to save Daisy. When Nick states that “the holocaust was complete” (122), he is referring to the sacrifice of Gatsby, and the death of Wilson.
Daisy I also agree that it is portraying Gatsby as a Christ-like figure. Also, that both individuals sacraficed for people whom they loved and cared for.
Daisy, I really like your idea of Gatsby being a Christ-like figure. I think there is a major emphasis on him being an innocent man. Similar to Christ, he was killed although innocent. This also relates to the Holocaust because many innocent people were tortured and killed.
I agree with you 100% Daisy. Although I never looked at it from that perspective, it makes sense. Through out the book, we have been talking about how Gatsby is a Christ-like figure. It is fitting that Gatsby dies in the end in order to save Daisy from being punished for her wrong doing, or her sin. You bring up some very good points!
I totally agree with you Daisy about how holocaust is being used to detail how Gatsby, a Christ-like figure, sacrificed himself for Daisy. Nick states how ""They're [Daisy & Tom] are a rotten crowd"... "You're [Gatsby] worth the whole damn bunch put together"" (157). In Nick's eyes, Gatsby is worth more due to his better morals/ ability to achieve his dreams. In the bible, Jesus dies on the cross to save people from their sins. This is similar to Gatsby's death in how he sacrificed himself to save people (Daisy) from the consequences of their moral decay/ sins.
I never even looked at It in that sort of way, very appealing. Throughout the book I have always imagined TJ Eckleburg to be more of a God-like figure however looking at it this way maybe it was Fitzgerald's attempt to create a more hidden and less obvious connection.
Interesting! Has anyone connected the three days it took Gatsby's father to claim his son's body?
Daisy, I kind of disagree with your statement of comparing Gatsby with Christ. You said he died as an innocent man to save Daisy, and he sacrificed himself. However, I don't see Gatsby as innocent, but someone who knew he was stealing back someone's wife. I also don't think he was seen as a sacrifice because nothing good really came out of his death.
The word holocaust is like saying a great destruction. I think Fitzgerald was referring to Gatsby's illusion. His grand illusion is seen in the way he has idealized Daisy through the years and convinced himself that she has ever only loved him. However, Gtasbys illusion, his dream begins to crumble, Daisy cant tell Tom that she never loved him, Gatsby waits outside her house but Daisy doesn't come out till 4 a.m. and hardly acknowledges him. Also when Gatsby asks his chauffer to tell him if he gets a call, he seems to doubt it as nick states, "I have an idea that Gatsby himself didn’t believe it would come, and perhaps he no longer cared. If that was true he must have felt that he had lost the old warm world, paid a high price for living too long with a single dream." Gatsby eventually gets shot by George and the holocaust is complete, George, Myrtle and Gatsby all die, and no call ever came from Daisy.
Although I agree with you about a holocaust, by definition, being a great destruction, I don't agree that the focus of the holocaust was based only on Gatsby's and George's relations. If this were so it is possible that Tom would have to die as well since he is the other piece to the puzzle since he is related to Myrtle. I believe this was mainly focused on Gatsby dying, despite being innocent. Daisy was the one who was driving and therefore the guilty one. In the end George, who doesn't "'belong to any (church)'' (119), basically separated from God, ends up killing the Christ-like figure of Gatsby. Therefore, this is why it is called a holocaust.
If completely agree with Kelsey. While I find it interesting how you use the holocaust as a reference to the main theme, I believe that the word is used to make readers feel a certain way about Gatsby's death. The holocaust was a tragic event which killed over a million people over the course of a few years. These people died for no reason aside for their religious beliefs; they were by all means innocent. This being said, Fitzgerald makes this reference to make Gatsby appear innocent, proving that hi8s death was not his fault. While I do not agree with the idea of Gatsby being completely innocent, I believe it is the central emotion readers are meant to feel towards him.
I agree with angel more as the holocaust meaning just the deaths of the characters is a very obvious assumption. However, as the novel is from nicks point if view I believe it to be his personal holocaust in which he severs ties with the people of west and east egg. He wishes not to sever ties with them as they are his close friends, however they are forced to be destroyed as nick needs all his anchors to his life in the east gone so he can leave for the west.
Nick simply states, “the holocaust was complete" to describe the battle that was fought and the deaths of Myrtle and Gatsby (Fitzgerald 162). Myrtle and Gatsby were trying to do what was right in their hearts, and both ended up getting killed. Since Daisy hit Myrtle as Gatsby and her were driving back, Gatsby took the blame, because he loves Daisy. Daisy was completed confused and worried about what was happening in her life. Daisy let Gatsby take the blame, and seemed to mend her marriage with Tom; both of the outer partners were killed, so Tom and Daisy could try to salvage their failing marriage. Likewise, both of them are able to walk away cleanly and have each other. Gatsby protected the girl he loved and, he ended up being the person who died, when it should have been either Tom or Daisy, since they were cheating on each other and caused everyone’s world to come crumbing down, causing the completion of the holocaust.
I agree with what you are saying Giancarlo. I also think that Gatsby takes the blame for Daisy out of love. I also agree that Daisy tries to save her marriage and also tries to keep what she still has in life. In my opinion, Daisy could be seen as selfish and uncaring for Gatsby at that point. Although she may be feeling hurt, she still is widely confused. Daisy and Tom partially are at fault for causing the completion of the Holocaust. At the point "the holocaust was complete" (Fitzgerald 162), Daisy and Tom only thought about what was left of their lives.
I think Nick uses the term holocaust to describe the events of chapter eight because, as many people have already said, Wilson, Myrtle, and Gatsby did not deserve or need to die.I do not believe that they were all innocent people, given Myrtle's infidelity and Wilson's murder of Gatsby. However, they were only products of their circumstances, and i think you can only feel sympathy for them and their actions. The actual dictionary definition of holocaust is destruction or slaughter on a mass scale. Missing from that definition is the reason why the murders take place. To me, events like The Holocaust, not just the definition, lack reason or justification. I think Nick too feels this when he says, "perhaps we possessed some deficiency in common which made us subtly unadaptable to Eastern life," (Fitzgerald e-reader). It is almost like Nick is trying to find a reason why the resolution of the story had to be the way it did and pins it on his group just not being right for the Eastern scene.
Great point. I agree with most of the comment, however I'm torn whether Gatsby should die or not. He used his neighbor to get to his cousin that he loves who is also married. He tries to break the marriage up. On top of that, he is a criminal and a liar to everyone. On the other hand, he has determination to achieve his goal of becoming rich, and he accomplished it. And it's apparent that he would give his life for Daisy.
Yeah, I sort of agree with Corey. Even though Gatsby does things that are not fit for moral standards, he does a numerous amount of thing through his life that show good determination and good moral character.
The word Holocaust is used to emphasize the chain reaction of killing in chapter 8. Character after character was disrupted form being able to continue their dream. Gatsby willingly takes the blame for as how Myrtle is killed. At the point where "the holocaust was complete" (Fitzgerald 162), it seems that it can connect to the end of innocence. Dream after dream is eliminated, ending the hopeful dream Gatsby wanted with Daisy. In this chapter Daisy is confused and conflicts lead to endings. Because Gatsby takes the blame, Gatsby is killed out of the love he had for Daisy. In that point it seems that he was willing to do anything for the women he loved. These actions only took negative tolls on the characters and, for Daisy, seemed to barely affect her.
I agree that the term holocaust is to represent the chain reaction of killing, but I don't think Daisy is unaffected. She killed someone, and then someone else died for her. Though it goes unexplained in the book of her true feelings I think she's struggling more than we know. The holo cause statement proves the killings of innocent people caused by one man, Tom.
I agree with you Joe as Nick uses the word “holocaust” to describe the horrible events that happened in the book. I also think that he uses the word to explain that all the people that died were innocent and didn’t deserve to die. Holocaust means a mass slaughter of people and that is what happened. Myrtle, Wilson, and Gatsby all died. When Gatsby died, it “was complete” (170). Everything was over. Nick had no more reason to write and everything that was happening because of Gatsby came to an end. People just went on with their lives.
When the chapter ends with "...the Holocaust was comlete," (Fitzgerald 162) I think that he ends this chapter this way because the word describes what has happen in the story. The word holocaust mean a reckless destruction of life;Gatsby and Wilson has cause a holocaust in the last two chapters since Gatsby (actually Daisy but Gatsby took the blame) recklessly took Myrtle's life away, while Wilson took Gatsby's life away.
I like and agree with your view on how Nick utilized the word holocaust. Gatsby was an innocent man and took the bullet for the death of Myrtle. I like how you displayed the definition of the word because it made it easily relatable to the book. Gatsby's life was destroyed through recklessness. Daisy should of been accountable for the death of Myrtle but instead the great Gatsby was. Tom should of been accountable as well because he cheated on Daisy for Myrtle. Wilson wanted revenge for what was done and killed the man that he suspected, in the end, an inncoent man died.
I believe that the word "holocaust" is used at the end of chapter eight in order to emphasize the horrid events that happened leading up throughout this chapter. A lot of bad things had happened during this chapter, for example, "Mrs. Wilson had been running away from her husband, rather than trying to stop any particular car" (Fitzgerald 159). With this, the car that had killed Wilson was Gatsby's, with Daisy driving. This was a turn of unfortunate events, because both are characters we have developed emotionally with. We don't want anything bad to happen to them, and with this even that occurred, they will have to take the consequences that come with it. The deed is done, and over with.
I really like the way you phrased that! I agree that the term "Holocaust" was used to describe all of the bad things that happened throughout the book. There was so much adultery and death that makes it the end, the end of the Holocaust
At the end of chapter 8, Nick states, “the holocaust was complete” (Fitzgereld 170). The book was written in 1925 and this was before the holocaust in WWII. The definition of holocaust is a mass laughter of people and many people did die. Daisy killed Myrtle, Wilson killed Gatsby, and Wilson killed himself. They were all innocent people who did not deserve to die. I think when Nick says the holocaust was complete; he means that the death of Gatsby completed everything. The story is over. Gatsby was the reason he was writing and he was the cause for many things that happened in the book. Now with Gatsby dead, things will just go back to the way they were, almost like nothing happened.
I really like how you compared the holocaust to the death of Gatsby. I agree that with the death of Gatsby came the death of some form of innocence and the end of the story. However, I do not think that things will go back to normal. I feel like there will be a lot of different changes of character and scenery with the death of Gatsby (however subtle they may be). Just like in a holocaust, the results of it are never without change. But overall, I do feel like with Gatsby's death a turning point has been hit.
The holocaust, I think we can all agree, was one of the most horrible events of the 20th century. So many innocent souls dead, and those who survived were most likely homeless and without a family. The death of three characters takes place in the chapter. The holocaust is a huge thing to compare the deaths to... but Gatsby is The Great Gatsby, he is magnificent, and he is killed. If the holocaust was the worst event of the 20th century, then I believe that Fitzgerald is referencing Gatsby's death to the horrible slayings. I believe he has gone far enough to equal Gatsby's life to the thousands of lost lives in the genocide. Gatsby's death will effect the world, and shock every single person to hear of it from years to come.
I mostly agree with you Riley that yes the holocaust was one of the most horrible and terror striken times and that how Nick characterizes Gatsby as the great leads to being one to not be able to share his greatness with the world because his life was cut short like the rest of people who were killed in the genocide. Saying that I have to disagree with you about how his death will effect the world. Everyone seemed to use Gatsby for the lavish things he gave out so I believe that only those who really cared for him will be the ones to remember him and be shocked of his absence. Not everyone within the world.
I agree with you that Fitzgerald used this word to describe the significance of Gatsby's death. I don't completely agree that his death would affect the world, because we never get the information that shows he was even a person important enough to have that much of an impact, but I think he mainly means the impact his death had on Nick. Also, I don't think there's any way Fitzgerald was comparing Gatsby's death to the holocaust that we know of because this book was published in 1925, which was before the holocaust even started.
The use of the word “holocaust” relates to when people get angry, they don’t care who really did it, they just want someone to blame. The same way Hitler killed all those Jews. The Jews weren’t at fault, neither was Gatsby to blame for the death of Myrtle. The fact Gatsby owned a yellow car and that “the front right fender needed repair” was all the information Wilson had, but his emotions fogged his mind and he did not realize what he was doing (Fitzgerald 161). The word “holocaust “ was used as a simile.
I agree with you that the word "holocaust" was used as a simile to the comparison of the actually holocaust that took place in Germany. It is very true that the killings were led by emotions and wanting to place the blame on other people whether they were actually at fault or not. Considering that both the actual holocaust and Gatsby's death took the lives of innocent people who were not at fault it was an appropriate simile for Fitzgerald to use. In the end, Tom or Daisy should have been the ones killed, which would show the responsibility of their past immoral actions being owned by both of them; however, then the word "holocaust" would not fit in appropriately because it would not have been the death of innocent lives, but instead corrupted ones.
I wasn't relating the holocaust to the innocent lives because well Gatsby is not so innocent himself. He is a criminal whom bootlegs and has dabbled in other businesses. He is involved with some sketchy people. Now it can be argued that he did this to win over Daisy but it wasn't an honest way to do it. I was relating the impact of the holocaust to his death. The holocaust equals the worst event of the 20th century. Gatsby's death equals the worst event of 20th century.
I can't quite agree with you Riley. It has never been proven that Gatsby is a criminal who bootlegs. There are many people who spread rumors of him and accuse him of being a bootlegger, like Tom and the woman at Gatsby's party, but there is no evidence to which he is a bootlegger. Also, we can infer that he has dabbled in other businesses, but we can't say that that makes him not innocent. If we say that Gatsby commits an inner sin, then then would he not be innocent. Although, I get where you are getting with Gatsby's death equaling the worst event of the 20th century. You are trying to say that he, who is most famous for his parties and is very well known in the celebrity area, dieing is in itself like a celebrity dieing.
I think that the word "holocaust" is one word used to describe the entire novel. The story is a war between not only Gatsby and Tom, but how wealthiness and greed can ruin people. Daisy runs over Myrtle with her car but gets away with it. Tom pins the blame on Gatsby and leaves unscathed. The holocaust is like karma; Gatsby and Myrtle both searched for love and paid the price for it. "and the holocaust was complete"(Fitzgerald 162).
I see what you're saying Monica but I don't think it represents the entire novel nor do I think the Holocaust is like karma because consequences for one's actions is much different than killings of innocent people.
Although i agree with you that there is significance behind a sort of karma aspect at the end of the novel. However I don't feel like the use of the word holocaust has much of a relation to that idea.Personally I believe that there is some deeper meaning to it but it is primarily about the actual definition mentioned in other comments.
Fitzgerald concludes chapter eight powerfully with, “…and the holocaust was complete” (Fitzgerald 162), signifying the loss of innocent lives and morals throughout the chapter. The holocaust was a past event that took the lives of thousands of Jews that were innocent souls, undeserving of their punishment. Likewise, the word holocaust fits in with two of the innocent lives robbed in the novel, which were those of Gatsby and Myrtle, who tried to fix their past actions and do what was morally right, but ended up having their lives sacrificed as a result. Though Daisy is the one who directly murdered Myrtle by running her over with Gatsby’s car, Gatsby decided to take the blame for the incident, “…but of course I’ll say I was” (Fitzgerald 143), to protect the woman he loved and thought loved him back. Daisy, being the self-centered character that she is, continued to live life as she did before with Tom and allowed Gatsby to get framed and killed, without any acknowledgement of him after the murder. The morally corrupted characters, such as Tom and Daisy, should have been the ones killed to take responsibility of the poor actions they committed in their lives instead of having the lives they effected take their blame and sacrifice their lives to do what they believed was right to mend the past. The word “holocaust” just helped further convey the message to readers from Fitzgerald, the significance of the innocent lives that were taken away, as almost a parallel event to that of the holocaust that was taking place in Germany, stealing the thousands of innocent lives as well, when in reality the roles should have been reversed.
I think that Nick uses the word "holocaust" in chapter eight to emphasis the death of Myrtle, Gatsby and Wilson. They were all innocent people that died and when Nick states, "the holocaust was complete." (Fitzgerald 170). He means that the story is complete. One of the most important characters in the book has died and there is not much more to be said.
I completely agree with you that really all the word holocaust was used for was an emphasis on the innocence involved in the deaths of Myrtle, Mr. Wilson, and Gatsby. Also Nick uses the word holocaust after he describes how “Wilson’s body [was] a little way off in the grass” (Fitzgerald 132), which I think give the reader a contrast and makes them think about the deaths differently.
I think Fitzgerald had Nick use holocuast to describe the death of Gataby in order to add emphasis to how horrible it was that he died, "and the holocaust was complete"(Fitzgerald 162). The holocaust was a world changing tragedy and it was the worst thing that happened in the 20th century. He compares Gatsby's death to it because, for Nick, it is horrible that Gatsby died and he is upset. Gatsby did a lot of good in the novel and he was innocent, in most cases, and like in the Holocaust, the Jews were innocent yet they were still killed.
I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't believe Gatsby was innocent at all because of his knowledge and understanding regarding his actions. Everything he did had a specific reason and he knew exactly what he was doing. I feel like the Holocaust being complete, while referring to Gatsby, means that the destruction he has caused is over. Once he was killed, all of the "problems" within the book can slowly fade away.
I believe that the term holocaust was used in direct relations to Gatsby's death. There was the death of Myrtle and Wilson which, although significant, there wasn't much innocence to them. I feel like Gastby was the main part of Nick's life and Nick worshipped him like a God-like figure. The holocaust was a mass murder of helpless, innocent people. This could be interpreted as the killings of Myrtle, Wilson, and Gatsby. This could also be because Gatsby became a huge part of many peoples lives throughout the novel and he affected so many people. The death of Gatsby killed a little part of everyone that Gatsby affected and touched. It could mean either or.
I completely agree with your point, Taylor. Gatsby was innocent in the novel. He was helpless to save himself, similar to the holocaust and how people could not save themselves. Therefore, I feel that Nick felt a great pain in Gatsby's death. However, I do not feel that Gatsby's death affected a lot of other people. No one showed up to his funeral because people did not appreciate him for his character, they liked him for his wealth, except Nick.
Nick uses the term Holocaust, any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life, at the of chapter 8 to point to the reckless deaths of Myrtle and Gatsby. While two deaths may not seem like mass slaughter, Myrtle and Gatsby represent a large embodiment in the novel. Myrtle represents sin committed by her and Tom, representative of society in the twentieth century by choosing pleasure over God.Gatsby represents wealth, the overbearing desire to be loved and be with Daisy and the idea that money cannot by one happiness. It's quite ironic that it is Daisy that killed Myrtle, a problem in her love life, and that led George to kill the other problem in her love life, Gatsby. "and the holocaust was complete" (170) could come to represent the commotion in Nick's, Jordan's, Tom's and Daisy's lives coming to an end.
I agree with your analysis of Gatsby and Myrtle’s death brought about a sense of peace in the neighborhood. Tension and drama began to die down after their deaths and I also agree on their archetypes as characters. The ideals they stood for are rooted into their character but are also heavily incited by the ones they are passionate about being Daisy and Tom. James was bound to run from home and become something different than his father before he even met Daisy detailed in the beginning of chapter six. Myrtle being the dominant person in the marriage between her and George would have sought after another man of Tom hadn’t come along. It’s quite ironic how Daisy kills the woman Tom was cheating with and Tom vice versa with a mechanic instead of a car.
Fitzgerald concludes chapter eight with, "..and the holocaust was complete" (Fitzgerald 162). I think he does this to show how Gatsby died as an innocent man. I also think that this is the reason that Fitzgerald kept referring to the eyes of Doctor T.J. Eckleburg to show that God also died an innocent man as Gatsby had. Also, I think that he used to word holocaust is to show how the war that the characters had been having in the past few chapters had now ceased and now there is nothing really to fight about anymore because both individuals that Tom and Daisy had been cheating with are dead.
I agree with the point you made Julia. I like the point about how Gatsby died an innocent man. I love how you related it back to the eyes and how that represent God and brings forth the idea that God died as an innocent man. This is another example of Fitzgerald relating Gatsby to God, as he does many times throughout the novel.
He uses the word holocaust because the holocaust sybolizes total ending and the climax was right before that. Also, it was like they were targeting people based on their social status which is like the jews being targeted in the extermination during WWII. Now that the damage is done, everyone can only look on it and learn from it, or continue on with the hate that they hold and turn the other cheek. This is shown when nobody but Gatsby's father and Nick attend the funeral.
I agree with what you are saying Noelle except that WWII hadn't happened yet since the book was written in the 20's. You do have valid points however in that it was the total ending in this chapter, the moment everything collapsed in upon itself.
I really like your idea of "total ending" because I think it relates to Nick's reason for leaving New York in the first place. Nick hated everyone is the city for what they had and what they stood for expect Gatsby. "He had one of those rare smiles with a quality of eternal reassurance in it, that you may come across four or five times in life. It faced, or seemed to face, the whole external world for an instant and then concentrated on you with an irresistible prejudice in your favor. It understood you just as far as you wanted to be understood, believed in you as you would like to believe in yourself." Gatsby was such a wonderful person that his death seemed to end any and all good in New York.
By definition a holocaust is a mass destruction of human life. Nick uses the word holocaust to emphasize the tragedy of Gatsby, Myrtle, and Mr. Wilson’s deaths. None of them needed to die; however, because of overwhelming emotions and having the vengeance to act upon them “…the holocaust was complete” (Fitzgerald 132). After what Nick refers to as the holocaust is done the emotion is gone and there is nothing left. This idea of relating this to a holocaust very much emphasizes the innocence within the three deaths.
I think that Fitzgerald's uses the word "holocaust" to connect with a historical holocaust. In a holocaust, a large number of innocent people die due to the actions or supervision of others. Leading up to this chapter, Myrtle died after a car accident caused by Daisy then Wilson killed Gatsby, then killing himself. Wilson retaliated because he convinced himself that "God knows what [they've done]... and [they] could fool [him], but [they] can't fool God", or in other words God had wanted who ever had killed Myrtle to die under Wilson's hands (Fitzgerald 159). Convincing himself further, Wilson said, "God sees everything" before killing Gatsby and himself under the supervision of God, who is everywhere (160). I also think that the chapter ended with "...and the holocaust was complete" because the last of the innocent people died, so there was no one left to perish because the task was done (162).
I agree with your over all idea of the use of holocaust, Paula, but I don't agree with Fitzgerald wanting Wilson to kill the person that ran over Myrtle. I think the mentions of "God knows what [they've done]... and [they] could fool [him], but [they] can't fool God," relates to the sins that Tom, Daisy, Myrtle and Gatsby have committed (Fitzgerald 159).Each of their sins, connect with one another like dominos. Tom cheats on Daisy with Myrtle, Daisy feels betrayed and goes for Gatsby who Tom blames Gatsby for the death of Myrtle when it was Daisy who ran her over. A little white lie turns into another lie then another, and so on.
I see where you're coming from and think that your argument is well supported. I like your connection with dominoes because their everyone's downfall was caused by one event. It could also be said that the dominoes could relate to Daisy running over Myrtle, which lead to Wilson killing Gatsby and himself. Dominoes can be related to the novel in many ways, so I think you brought up a great idea!
I think Nick uses the Holocaust to show the destruction done with everyone's lives in the novel. It also shows how Gatsby died an innocent man but his death was because he covered for Daisy. The word itself is rough and negative just like the past events that happened. Gatsby, Myrtle and Wilson's death are all a sense of cruelty and torture because of the way the died and the reasoning of their death.
Carraway uses the term "holocaust" to describe chapter 8 because of the sacrificial victims and scapegoats mentioned. Fitzgerald sets up the scene perfectly with his use of imagery with, "A new world, material without being real, where poor ghosts, breathing dreams like air, drifted fortuitously about...." (Fitzgerald 151). I believe that Mr. Wilson, Myrtle's husband, is a sacrificial victim because he is heavily affected by Myrtle's affair with Tom. Wilson is constantly surrounded by the environment of decay and somewhat of desolation due to them living in the Valley of Ashes. Gatsby I feel is also a victim as well. He is blamed for Myrtle's death even though he is not the one who killed her, showing how the Buchanans are using Gatsby as a scapegoat because they will not confess the truth about the accident.
The holocaust symbolizes the death of millions of innocent people, killed for their religious values. By using this word Fitzgerald proves the innocence within Gatsby’s death. While Gatsby himself may not have been completely innocent, I don’t believe anyone within this novel is. Gatsby was probably one of the most innocent people, holding a love for Daisy for nearly five years, and then killed for a something he did not do. Readers would much rather have seen Tom die.
Tyler, I do not believe that we can say that anything that Gatsby did was innocent. His intent may have been innocent, which was simply to love Daisy. He took another mans wife, which is something that is not an innocent action and we know that all he gets all of his organized through organized crime. So to describe anything other than Jay's intent as innocent, in my opinion, would be false.
I disagree with your statement about Gatsby being innocent, but agree with what you said about readers preferring to have seen Tom die. The reason this is is because Gatsby is the charming, charismatic protagonist of the story, and Tom is presented as the insecure, cheating husband of a suffering wife. In reality though, Tom and Gatsby were not in very different positions. Just as Tom deliberately cheats on Daisy, and destroys the marriage of Mr.Wilson, Gatsby is trying to do the same thing to Tom by taking Daisy away. In addition, Fitzgerald alludes that Gatsby's money comes from organized crime and bootlegging. Therefore Gatsby is just as much at fault as any of the other characters in the novel. I don't think that a single one of them can truly be labeled as an innocent character.
I feel that Nick uses the word "holocaust" to describe chapter 8 because of the way people are treated in this chapter. Fitzgerald says "A new world, material without being real, where poor ghosts, breathing dreams like air, drifted fortuitously about...." (Fitzgerald 151). This shows that these characters, especially in the valley of ashes aren't "real". I believe that Myrtle's husband is heavily affected by Myrtle's affair with Tom, very negatively. He is depressed and he's the one taking the heat for Tom and myrtles relationship. Also, Gatsby is blamed for Myrtle's death even though he is not the one who killed her. The Buchanans are using Gatsby as a way to get away about not confessing to the murders.
Nick uses the term "holocaust" to describe chapter 8 because it was a free for all of death to the people he knew and loved. Daisy killed Myrtle, and because of that Tom told on Gatsby and Wilson killed Gatsby before then killing himself. All of the murders of innocent people that were wrongly accused and killed for things they didn't do, much like the Holocaust.
Death is at the end of chapter 8 in The Great Gatsby. The most obvious deaths are the literal deaths of Gatsby and Wilson. Gatsby was killed, and when he died, so did his grand dream of a life spent loving Daisy. Wilson kills Gatsby and then kills himself; when he dies, so did his modest dream of a life spent with Myrtle. Wilson is obviously deeply upset about the death of his wife, but he has gotten to the point where he can't control himself or his emotions. He had no desire to control himself. He desired one thing, and that's revenge. Wilson mentions multiple times throughout the chapter that he "has ways of finding out" who killed his wife. What makes this a holocaust, of sorts, is that both these men are innocent victims of faithless women and sought nothing more than the simple love and affection of those women. It's true Wilson murdered Jay, however, he did it because he had been fooled by both Tom and Myrtle.Gatsby had died because he willingly took the blame for the woman he loves. Gatsby was calm on the night of his death, pondering his future life with him and Daisy, while Wilson died with a troubled heart. The loss of innocence is essentially what made it a holocaust. The reference to the Holocaust emphasizes how all the innocent lives were lost, while those who were spiritually and moral corrupt where permited to live for reasons unknown.
I very much agree with you Jesse. Gatsby and Wilson were set up as scapegoats I feel because they just wanted simplicity in love, not all these other ends that somehow circulate back together. Sometimes being in love clouds your judgment and causes you to do stupid things.
I find it interesting that Fitzgerald uses the word holocaust. The holocaust obviously happened after this book was written and published. Therefore the term holocaust was not commonly used or known. The fact that Fitzgerald uses this word is very important. It shows just how catastrophic the event of Gatsby's death is. If Gatsby were to use a common word like, "the deaths were complete", or, "the murders were complete", it would not have the same effect as a harsh word like holocaust. The time period in which he used the word plays a significant role in the meaning of the word.
Tyler, while the holocaust happened after the book was written, that does not necessarily mean that the word was not used before then. I do agree that he uses it to add a shock factor to readers, and if Fitzgerald used a different term, then it would not have the same effect as the word holocaust
Nick uses the Holocaust to describe Gatsby death in hopes that it would add importance and emphasis to how horrible his death was. Nick says “and the holocaust was complete” (Fitzgerald 162), the holocaust was a tragic event that changed the world. In my opinion it was the worst genocide in American history! Nick compares Gatsby’s death to the holocaust because Nick feels that it was horrible that Gatsby died and he’s mad about it. Although he did some things that were not so great, he did many good things. Essentially he was blameless. All the bad he did do he did with good intentions. He was innocent, like in the holocaust the Jewish people were all innocent but they were still murdered.
The end of chapter 8 ends with "...and the holocaust was complete" (162). Fitzgerald uses the word holicaust as a comparison to the recent death and destruction within the chapter. In the recent chapters, we witness the deaths of Gatsby, Myrtle, and George. All the death and destruction is what Fitzgerald is refering to as the holocaust.
Corey J, good point about the three of them dying as a sense of a holocaust. The way I took it was that Gatsby himself dying was the end of a Great war between personal views and realty. There was this constant idea of love that was never gonna be set in stone between all three of the people. None of them were happy. Sure they were happy for brief periods of time, but their minds always wanted something different than what they had. The word holocaust is used as a large quantity of deaths so even though there was only three physically, emotionally there were plenty between the three characters.
It's important to note that when this book was written, World War II, and by extension the Holocaust referred to in history, has not happened yet. Unless Fitzgerald could predict the future, he isn't referring to any genocide, but instead general disaster provided by fire (or, alternatively, a ritual burning on an altar in Jewish tradition). This usage probably means more that the fire "killing" these people has been burning for a long time, and it wasn't just one point setting them off, but a constant stream of pain, a sort of match that finally stopped burning out.
I like the clarification on the use of holocaust especially considering the time the book was set and published in. The analogy about the match that finally stopped burning out is great. The events which all lead to Gatsby's death and his death signaled that event. These chain of reactions end in the result of Gatsby’s death, which ultimately abruptly stops any more major events in the story.
I like how you use growing fire to symbolize the immorality of the characters.
Fitzgerald uses the word Holocaust at the end of chapter 8 in order to create the image of destruction. It can be seen as the end of an age filled with sin. At the exact moment Gatsby dies, the parties in which everyone goes to will seem to exist and the dispute between Daisy and Tom will be know more. Everything thought to be morally wrong will be a thing in the past. Now, the only thing positive that will can come from this will be progressing and learning from the mistakes made. All the lies, destruction, carelessness, and sin must come to a stop and in doing so, society will be taking a step in the right direction just like after WWII.
The meaning of holocaust is to end all of something, for instance Hitler tried to kill all the Jewish people. The use of the word holocaust in this instance is that it's the ending of love and cheating. The death of Gatsby ended his love with Daisy. Tom found out about their affair at the end but he was cheating too. Daisy cannot be with Gatsby anymore which is really upsetting to me because she was not being treated right by Tom and she truly loved Gatsby. The word holocaust is used because it is ending the love of Daisy and Jay Gatsby in a horrible way.
Think of the word holocaust as the ending of a situation makes me think about the book/scenes a little different. Thinking of the "holocaust" as the ending of love and cheating adds like a twist in the story.
"The Great Gatsby" was obviously set place in the time before the Holocaust in WWII occurred so it has a different meaning in this context. Nick comes back to Gatsby's house and realizes, "It was after we started with Gatsby toward the house that the gardener saw Wilson's body a little way off in the grass, and the holocaust was complete" (Fitzgerald 162). I think the word greatly summarizes the events because Gatsby died as an innocent man. Daisy killed Myrtle, causing George to kill Gatsby and himself. There are many definitions of "holocaust" and one of them would be killing of innocent people and this was the case. All the blame is on Daisy because of her actions and the punishment goes on to others instead. They are sacrificed for Daisy's sake and I think that she will not take responsibility for her actions.
I agree with you, when Fitzgerald uses the word holocaust, he means it by saying that innocent people were killed. However, all the blame can not be blamed on just Daisy, Myrtle willingly cheated on George for Tom and Daisy and Gatsby did the same thing. Every action has a consequence, except this consequence was an extreme one in which three lives were taken.
I agree with you Carl because a holocaust is the mass destruction of human life done recklessly. Holocausts like, but not solely pertaining to WWII, happen because the troubles of a people are blamed on one group, which is then persecuted and killed in order to solve the said people's problems. The blame was suppose too be put on Daisy, however Gatsby took the blame and was persecuted and that caused his death.
I agree with you and your terminology of Holocaust because the novel was written before WWII. I also believe Daisy is the main reason for the deaths of Myrtle, Gatsby and the events that lead up to George's death. Gatsby states that after daisy hit Myrtle, "Daisy stepped on it. I tried to make her stop but she couldn't so I pulled on the emergency brake" (151). Gatsby clearly wanted to stop to see the aftermath of the hit and cares for Myrtles well being, but Daisy acts recklessly and tries to drive away and not claim responsibility.
The term "holocaust" means "mass destruction." Although the deaths of Myrtle, Gatsby, and Wilson are tragic, it shouldn't necessarily be considered a "mass destruction." In this context, it could be that Fitzgerald had intentionally wanted readers to consider it as a metaphor, rather than its literal form.This metaphor could be pertaining to the innocence and ignorance of Gatsby and Wilson who were both victims of faithless women , or even the concept of the American Dream and the actual suffering it holds.
Nick stated at the end of chapter 8, "the holocaust was complete” (Fitzgerald 162). I think he used that word to demonstrate the innocent death of Gatsby.In the holocaust thousands of innocent people died based on their status, the Jews were exterminated by the Germans. Jay Gatsby didnt even kill Myrtle, Daisy did but Gatsby took the hit for her in the end. He covered for Daisy and died an innocent man. Nick is broken from Gatsby's death and uses the word to deliver a story and compare Gatsby to the innocent people of the Holocaust.
I agree with you, but I do not believe that Gatsby was a completely innocent man. Even though he was not the one who killed Myrtle, he didn't do anything to fix the problem, like stopping, or telling the truth. Also, he was trying to steal a man's wife. Thats not an action that one can be called innocent after.
"Holocaust" in Greek, means "whole burning", or, in a more modern definition, tends to mean "mass killing". (Note The Great Gatsby was written before World War II) By killing off characters who had to sin to get what they want, Fitzgerald might say we must rid ourselves of these impurities or else it could be our downfall. Note also that these characters took the fall for the things they didn't do. He could be saying that If we do not purify ourselves now, society as a whole could take the burden in the future.
I really like how you phrased this, Joe! There was a lot of deaths in chapter eight that were extremely significant. These were the characters' downfalls; everything that had been worked up to be great in the beginning began to fall downwards and thus, their death or the "holocaust". I agree that people needed to began to become pure again, and get back on track into reality, because the burden would end up smacking them in the face (Great Depression), making sure that it did not happen again.
The word holocaust is used in an odd manner here strictly because it was rarely used before World War II. It's probably hard for readers this day in age to understand why it is used in the context of the murder of Gatsby. The actual definition of holocaust is "destruction or slaughter on a mass scale". Literally this means that a lot of people are killed in a short amount of time. How can this relate to one person though? Well if you think about how many people Gatsby had at his parties, you then start to think about how many people this is emotionally killing. People went to his parties I get silly drunk and as a relief and break from reality. Without this people are miserable, emotionally killing them on the inside. However the bad morals will start dying off without Gatsby's parties. In a proper sense the holocaust is ending, but in an emotional sense it is only beginning. That's why this death is such a holocaust. It hurt so many people, it is just like when Michael Jackson died I be related to today's society.
Honestly Chandler, I think you nailed Fitzgerald's purpose of using the word "holocaust" to pertain to these murders perfectly. I couldn't of said it better myself! I totally had the same though of how the death of two people could relate to a "mass killing" but I think you made a great point. Gatsby touched the lives of many sometimes directly, and other times indirectly. But to most, Gatsby's home was a playground, a place of escape where people could lose themselves. This applies to the death of anyone really, especially in suicides because those who kill themselves feel unworthy of life, but never realize how many lives of others are affected the death of one person. So I agree with you that by the use of the word, that's what Fitzgerald was trying to reach to his readers.
I think Fitzgerald ends the chapter with "...and the holocaust was complete," (Fitzgerald 162) because when he is referring to the deaths of the Wilson's and he is trying to tell us that they are innocent people. The Wilson's did not do anything wrong and they were wrongly punished for it. I also think that this is referring to how they were killed. In the Holocaust, the people were not killed with respect, just like Myrtle wasn't. She was killed by getting run over by a car and the wreck was so bad that it ripped her chest open.
I think Fitzgerald chose to end the chapter by saying "...and the holocaust was complete" (Fitzgerald 162) because many innocent people were killed in chapter eight. For example, Gatsby was falsely accused of killing Myrtle and therefore Wilson killed Gatsby to get revenge. Many other characters died in this chapter including Myrtle and Wilson. All these people were innocent in some way but their life was taken from them. This is similar to the holocaust because of the mass murder on innocent people.
Nick uses the word holocaust to express the death of these large dreams the characters' have. A holocaust is slaughter on a mass scale. Gatsby's dreams are the largest of the characters, when he dies his dreams do too.
Holocaust doesn't just refer to what happened in World War Two though that's what it seems like everyone relates it to. Holocaust is referring to slaughter and/or destruction on massive scale. That's what appears to be going on in these chapters and Nick has a front seat to just sit and fear the consequences that are finally hitting all the characters. They all get to attest to their sins for once.
I agree with you Ryan that this is not just about the WWII holocaust and that is has such a greater significance. But I do believe that the reason that it is compared to it so heavily is because of the idea that not everyone who looses something at the end of this story necessarily deserves what they lost. For instance, on an emotional level, Nick looses someone who he became very close with and almost idolizes even though Nick does not necessarily do anything for his lose. His loss comes from the actions of others--similar to those who lost their lives and family in the historical Holocaust.
The word holocaust can represent the loss of many innocent people. It can also represent a sacrifice. Nick states "the holocaust was complete" (Fitzgerald 162). When he states this he is referring to the sacrifice that Gatsby made to save Daisy. Gatsby was an innocent man that's died in order to save the one he loved. Even though Gatsby did not willingly die, he took blame for killing someone else knowing that there would be consequences. The word holocaust describes Gatsby's actions.
I do not agree with you on this, Haley. Gatsby's actions towards protecting Daisy's reputation were hardly that of a holocaust. Though I do agree with you on the idea of what he did being labeled as a sacrifice, but I think that there is much different point that Fitzgerald is trying to make by calling the events s holocaust. The loss or destruction of almost every loving relationship up until this point seems to me to be a much close presentation of a holocaust.
He uses the word, holocaust, to create an image of destruction and devastation. It's important to note that when this book was written “The Holocaust” (referring to the mass slaughtering of the Jewish race), had not yet happened. Because of this, Fitzgerald wasn’t refereeing to any form of genocide, but rather a general disaster. When Gatsby dies, the parties in which everyone goes to will seem to exist and the debate between Tom and Daisy will no longer be. Everything thought to be immoral will exist no longer. The only possible positive outcome of this “holocaust” is the opportunity to learn from mistakes
I like that you realized that the holocaust hasn’t even happened yet. Fitzgerald used the word not as a comparison to what had not happen yet but he used it as a fancy vocabulary word to describe what was happening. People now a day just think he is comparing to what had actually happened years later.
I recognize the fact that the holocaust has not happened yet, but we can still relate to the idea of it and how these events in the novel can closely relate to the holocaust that hasn't even happened yet. For example all of the people connected to Tom's problems throughout the novel seem to just die off, and we all know the reason the Nazis started the genocide against the jews because the government blamed them for all of the countries problems.
A lot of things die at the end of chapter 8 in The Great Gatsby. The most obvious deaths are the literal deaths of Gatsby and Wilson. Gatsby was killed, and when he dies so his grand dream of a life spent loving Daisy. Wilson kills Gatsby and then kills himself; when he dies, so does his modest dream of a life spent with Myrtle. What makes this a holocaust, of sorts, is that both these men are innocent victims of faithless women and want nothing more than the simple love of those women. It's true Wilson murders Jay; however, he does it because he's been duped by both Tom and Myrtle. Gatsby died because he willingly took the blame for the woman he loves. The loss of innocence is a shattering holocaust. Myrtle's life was "violently extinguished, knelt in the road and mingled her thick dark blood with the dust" (137). However, while Myrtle's death was an accident, Gatsby and Wilson's were intentional. Relevantly, the holocaust was considered as an accident die to dictator ship but still violence was intentional.
I love the perspective you put on this manner. At first, I would have never thought to consider what gets destroyed along with these characters' deaths. The only thing I have a little trouble with is, what your definition of holocaust in this manner. Also, what exactly of these deaths ties in with "holocaust"?
Although Gatsby was not perfect, as no person is, he did serve as a God like figure throughout the novel. When Fitzgerald says, "and the holocaust was complete" (170) he does use the word "holocaust" to represent the mindless killings of Myrtle and Gatsby. However, he might also mean that the death of Gatsby meant the death of God and morals because of his God-like symbolism.
I agree with you Jake because I think the main concept is as you said, a "mindless" killing. All of these deaths could have been prevented, and occurred as a result of the corruption of one man, Tom Buchanon. Any holocaust could be prevented because it is simply mindless killing. The corruption of one man lead to the corruption of others, and eventually the deaths of myrtle and Gatsby.
As Fitzgerald ends the chapter with the sentence "the holocaust is complete" (Fitzgerald 162) he is comparing Gatsby's death to the Holocaust. The Holocaust took place long ago and was what caused the death for many innocent lives. Although there are not many people in today's society still alive to talk about it, we all still learn about it and it has left a scar on history. I think that the reason for comparing Gatsby's death to the holocaust is to resemble how Gatsby was innocent and that his death will leave a scat on all the characters, especially due yo how she has grown so fond of their love lately.
*especially Daisy due to how she has grown so fond of their love lately
I think that the reason why Fitzgerald compared the events of chapter eight to a holocaust is because he wanted to convey the point that what had happened was senseless and unnecessary. This is also evident when Henry C. Gatz describes what he read about Mr.Wilson in the papers, he says "'It was a madman,' he said. 'He must have been mad" (167). I think that the point that Fitzgerald is trying to make with this line is that the only reason that any of these tragedies happened was because of the misconception, and over escalation of the characters' emotions. In this specific example with Mr.Wilson, he was very misconceived, Nick says that Wilson was "reduced to a man 'deranged by grief'" (163). This does not nearly capture all of the things that went into provoking Wilson's actions. For example, the things that caused his grief such as Tom and his wife's death. It does not represent that he was deceived at the end of his life into thinking that it was Gatsby who killed Myrtle, when in fact it was Daisy. All of this relates back to Fitzgerald's use of the word holocaust because that is exactly what he shows within this story, the senseless and tragic killing of people who just didn't understand one another.
Nick's word choice for the events of chapter 8 seem key for the situation. I feel like Gatsby was a misunderstood character. From the beginning I had always been more biased toward him. His love for Daisy is what drove him to act out in the ways that he did. Tom's corruptive behavior throughout the novel and his habit of violent behavior seemed to have foreshadowed events to come, however it was Wilson who became the violent figure. In a way, this relates to a holocaust. Even though the book was written before the Holocaust, I can see how Tom can be portrayed as Hitler. He himself didn't ever necessarily kill anyone, but his lapdog (Wilson in this case in comparison to Hitler's army) carried out all the dirty work. Between this and the death of misunderstood characters all with innocent feelings that lead to unorthodox behavior, the term "holocaust" was very fitting for the events in this chapter.
By historical definition, the holocaust was a series of unlawful acts killing innocent people, as we know it. Fitzgerald connects to the holocaust(before WWII) to show that innocent people died due to false accusations and misfortune, such as Gatsby killed by Wilson after being wrongly accused. He uses this term to make these connections but not in any context or intent in the way of referencing World War II. I have to admit, he was strangely close with his references and predictions!!! Wouldn't you say?
I think the term 'holocaust' is used to symbolize the impact of each character's actions. The impact on the most known holocaust is the automatic need to prevent it, look back at what is wrong, and prevent it from happening again. When nick said, "the holocaust was complete" (162), it is saying that the whole novel, from this the beginning to this point has been a holocaust. Therefore, each action that has been taken by each character, Daisy, Tom, Myrle, Gatsby, and Wilson, has been a constant battle. The eye of God can be said to be one side of the holocaust and the actions taken thus far the other. The actions taken thus far ultimately resulting in the death of two innocents.
The definition of holocaust is "destruction or slaughter on a mass scale", according to Google. With this meaning, there is no debt that chapter eight could be considered a holocaust. At this point, severy single relstionship has been damaged or destroyed. Myrtle is dead, Wilson and Tom are distraught, Nick doesn't have the energy for Jordan, and Gatsby has been killed. This is a holocaust of love.
I have to agree with you that the holocaust was destruction and slaughter on a mass scale and I have to say I like how you mention that this chapter breaks relationships rather than just killing people because I feel like that is one small portion of the story that people looked over when considering that the holocaust happend after this book took place so Nick is not referring to the event but the defenition. This is exemplified by when Myrtle's life was "violently extinguished, knelt in the road and mingled her thick dark blood with the dust" (137). This here's. To show how the relationship between Wilson and his cheating wife.
Fitzgerald uses holocaust not to describe the deaths of Myrtle and Wilson, but to describe nicks relationship with the characters in the novel. As holocaust means a mass destruction, the events in chapters 7 and 8 explain the reasons for nicks leaving as those he was closest with in both eggs he can to loathe. He refers to them as "a rotten crowd" and sides with Gatsby due to his being his brother in arms serving in the war. However, now as he finds Wilson dead in Gatsby's yard, he does not want to be tied up with crimes that Gatsby may have commuted and then severs his final tie to the eggs.
A holocaust is the mass destruction of human life. Holocausts like, but not solely pertaining to WWII, happen because the troubles of a people are blamed on one group, which is then persecuted and killed in order to solve the said people's problems. Similarly an innocent Gatsby is killed by Mr. Wilson, who then in turn kills himself, because Wilson blames the death of his wife on Gatsby, "By half past two he was in West Egg where he asked someone the way to Gatsby's house" (168). Rather than investigating and reflecting upon the real cause of his wife's death, which was partly due to the way Wilson imprisoned and mistreated her earlier, Wilson found a quick fix and blamed it solely on Gatsby. This is similar to how people during this time period blamed others for the decline in the morality of society, rather than realizing they themselves were to blame. For example people blamed alcohol for the troubles of society, when it was the people themselves, not the alcohol, that was the source of trouble. Nick's comment is reflection Fitzgerald had about society the way it places blame on others, rather than themselves.
I really like the approach you took on Fitzgeralds closing statement about the Holocaust. I hadn't thought about it this way before, but your connection really makes sense. I agree that the people present in this novel blame others for their own troubles, especially focusing on Wilson in this chapter. I think it closely reflects on the views of society at the time and how people always blamed others. I agree with your connection to views on alcohol in the time period and I think it was a good example to bring up.
I think that Fitzgerald uses the phrase, "the holocaust was complete" as a way of saying innocent lives were taken. Essentially, Gatsby died because he had the yellow car, that he was not even driving. The only connection was that he was in the car. The "holocaust" relates to senseless killings. I think that it is also reflective of the holocaust because Gatsby is the one who dies, and not Tom. Tom portrays a person with terrible morals, like a nazi, running around with women, and treating Daisy with no respect. Instead, Gatsby dies, or the Jews, even though Gatsby did nothing wrong to deserve it. The "dream" that Gatsby had was crushed.
It's important to note the event of the Holocaust has yet to occur in history at the time of this novel was written, so Fitzgerald is literally referring to the word's literal meaning of its Greek origin, "sacrifice by fire." Gatsby is killed by Wilson because he is blamed for the death of Myrtle, when in reality, Gatsby took the blame for the one he loved because Daisy was in fact the killer. His death is described as, "The touch of a cluster of leaves revolved it [the mattress on which Jay lies] slowly, tracing, like the leg of a compass, a thin red circle in the water" (ebook). It explains a sort of sacrificial setting in which Gatsby does and "by fire" simply means in the situation that his death was unjust because Gatsby was innocent and didn't deserve to die. Even Wilson kills himself which follows the same line of reasoning because although he murdered Gatsby, he was forced to live a life with a wife who cheated on him when all he did was love her.
This is such a well written answer:) I agree with you on every word. Both the deaths of Gatsby and Myrtle were unjust and none of the characters will ever seem to know the real truth behind them. Each death, including Wilson's, appear to be sacrifices so that the other characters are able to live forward in their lives.
This a really good point about the meaning of holocaust. Looking back, I agree on your points about Gatsby's death appearing to be a sacrifice. Wilson was determined to avenge his wife's death and does so by murdering Gatsby, the man he thought to be having affairs with Myrtle. Mr. Wilson then kills himself, making the death of Gatsby even more innocent and pointless because Wilson does it solely to get avenge the death of Myrtle. It shows a loss of morality because of the senseless killings of a man who wanted nothing else, but Daisy's love.
The chapter concluded with the statement, “… the holocaust was complete” (162). By definition a holocaust is a destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, esp. caused by fire or nuclear war, and in this chapter so many people died. Wilson killed Gatsby, Daisy killed Myrtle, and Wilson committed suicide. So many people died in this chapter were killed and when Gatsby died it represented how the killing was complete, representing how the story will go back to normal.
Nick called this chapter a holocaust due to all of the deaths experienced in this chapter. Myrtle died and as a result Wilson killed Gatsby and then died himself. All of this trauma brought on by the greed and corruption of everyone. Similar to the actual holocaust, where the Nazi party killed simply as an act of evil greed in the mind of Hitler. The deaths were many which is why he compared it to a holocaust.
Just remembered this was written in the 1920s.... But still the idea of unnecessary killing is prevalent and Myrtle and Gatsby didn't have to die. The corruption of a few people led to their deaths.
Chapter 8 brings a lot of death to the novel. Fitzgerald's use of the word holcuast is supported because of the multiple deaths experienced in such a short period of time. By saying, "The touch of a cluster of leaves revolved it [the mattress on which Jay lies] slowly, tracing, like the leg of a compass, a thin red circle in the water"(Fitzgerald 162) Fitzgerald describes Gatsby's death and then reveals that Wilson killed himself after he had killed Gatsby. The number of deaths in such a short period of time results in Fitzgerald's use of the word, holocaust.
Fitzgerald concludes the chapter with "...and the holocaust was complete," (Fitzgerald 162). I think this statement represents all of the innocent lives that were taken during the holocaust. It also represents Gatsby's death. Gastby was innocent, and his life should not have been taken so soon. He was not even driving the car that killed Myrtle, but yet he was the one killed because it was his car. Gatsby symbolizes the Jews back in that time period, because he did nothing wrong and was blamed for something he did not do like a lot of the Jews were. -
I think it was considered a holocaust because Fitzgerald is trying to say that only God can truly punish people because he's the only one that sees all. Wilson never knows who truly killed his wife, even when he decides to commit suicide after shooting Gatsby. I also think it was because he thinks the act was corrupt because of this. The city of ashes is a big symbol for corruption. And when Wilson is walking towards Gatsby he is described as an "ashen, fantastic figure gliding towards (Gatsby) through the amorphous trees" (122 Gatsby). The fact that he is an ashen figure provides another sense of corruption.
This chapter ends with "the halocaust was complete"(162) to describe the many lives that were taken by the end of the novel. He uses the word holocaust to literally reference a massacre of a group of the innocent and to connect the characters to what is derived from the Greek word. Gatsby is killed instead of Tom although he does not deserve it and because the death of Mrtyl was not his fault at all. Wilson found a quick fix and blamed it solely on Gatsby. Similar to how people during this time period blamed others for the decline in the morality of society. They never considered reasons but just got into all the killings.
I think that when Fitzgerald said,"the holocaust was complete"(Fitzgerald 162) He was trying to show that all the innocence that was with everyone had gone due to all the deaths and killing. We also get the understanding that since their was such a large amount of death in such a short amount of time, we could understand why Fitzgerald called this the holocaust.
I think that in Nick referring to the events of chapter 8 as a holocaust in order to show the brutality of the situation (the death of three important characters). He says that holocaust was complete because the death of Gatsby completed the "genocide" of all the innocent characters in the East (Nick is innocent, but he moves back to the Midwest). Daisy and Tom are not innocent because they both cheated on each other; and Jordan is not innocent because she is already a lying and deceitful person.
I agree with you James, the word holocaust definitely adds a sense of brutality to the situation. To add on, I believe that the word holocaust could indicate a total end. In this case this would be the point of the climax. After this moment, Nick moves and there is no more Gatsby. The novel reached the climax and the building up to the climax included several people dying, thus making it very appropriate to describe the situation as a holocaust.
I feel like all the world holocaust is used as a way to describe all the innocent people being killed. For example, when Gatsby was killed by Wilson, he was murdered for a crime he hadn't committed. Myrtle was killed, however she wasn't all that innocent either. Wilson killed himself for putting Myrtle through all her pain. The term "holocaust" is used by Nick as a way of saying all the people that died from one another had no right to take away each others lives.
Shivam, I agree with you that the use of the word focuses on all the death of innocent people and those who didn't have the right to be killed by others. But you also might consider that it also refers to those who did not die. Daisy, Tom, Jordan, and Nick's lives have been altered too by these events that took place.
The last line of chapter eight, “the holocaust was complete,” (Fitzgerald 162) has no reference at all to the major historical event, The Holocaust which Hitler misused power to kill millions of innocent people. Instead, three dictionary definitions of the word ‘holocaust’ are as follows: 1. a great or complete devastation or destruction 2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire, burnt offering and 3. any mass slaughter or destruction of life. In my opinion, Nick used the word ‘holocaust’ to describe the events of chapter eight as the destruction of life for Gatsby himself. Not only is his physical life ended by a gunshot from George Wilson, but his business life, his social life, and his dreamt future life with Daisy all come to a unfortunate end.
I agree with you that Nick's use of the word holocaust was not only referencing the deaths of Gatsby, Wilson, and Myrtle, but also the death of Gatsby's dream, and in a larger sense, the death of the American Dream during that time period. This holocaust of Gatsby's dream occurred before he was shot, when Daisy finally went back to Tom, destroying his life's purpose and hope that he may have one day took Daisy's hand in marriage. Nick describes the final scene in chapter 8 that the, "holocaust was complete" (170). This use of the word "complete" indicates that the holocaust started before any actual deaths occurred. This holocaust of morals, dreams, and hope actually began with the start of the novel.
“It was after we started with Gatsby toward the house that the gardener saw Wilson’s body a little way off in the grass, and the holocaust was complete” (Fitzgerald 166). I think that this slaughter is not only meant to describe the deaths of the characters in the novel but their dreams as well. Myrtle, Wilson, and Gatsby all physically die. But before these characters even died, their dreams were murdered too. “He [Gatsby] couldn’t possibly leave Daisy until he knew what she was going to do. He was clutching at some last hope and I couldn’t bear to shake him free” (151). Not only was Gatsby’s dream of Daisy lost, Wilson’s desire to move away with his wife was lost, Daisy’s hopes to run off with Gatsby were lost, etc. making this chapter a holocaust of lives as well as dreams.
I agree that the word meant for the destruction of not only the characters but also their dreams because they were fading away and seemed to suddenly end, or die in this case. Everything became lost at that instant, and characters like Gatsby couldn't do anything to get it back
The literal definition of holocaust is the destruction of human life. In chapter eighty it refers to the many lives destroyed after the truths came out. After the death of Myrtle there is a change in George, and we see him go from his normal hard working self to a morbid mess of a man, "You're morbid George... This has been a strain to you and you don't know what you're saying," (Fitzgerald 158). Michaelis says this to George after his rather foolish conclusions. The death of his wife effectively ruined George's life which in the end led to his passionate killing of Gatsby. From this one accident, the lives of both Wilson's and Gatsby are taken and the lives of the Buchanan's, Nick and Jordan are changed forever which all leads back to the word Holocaust: a destruction of life.
I agree with you on the general definition of holocaust as the destruction of life, and that when Nick says it, he does not only mean the actual deaths of the three characters, but also the damage to the lives of the living. The death of Myrtle hurt both Tom and Daisy, because Myrtle was Tom's Mistress and Daisy actually killed her, and would never be able to erase that image or be relieved from that burden. The holocaust was finally complete with the death of Gatsby, which hurt Nick, who was not very affected by the death of the other two. I also saw that in saying the holocaust was complete, Nick could have meant to show how the brutality spread among all three classes. Because of her affair with Tom, Myrtle could be considered East Egg, while Gatsby was West Egg, and Mr.Wilson represented the class that got left behind by the roaring 20s and fell into poverty.
Fitzgerald ends the chapter with "...and the holocaust was complete," (Fitzgerald 162). Holocaust means destruction on a mass scale. A life was completely destroyed, as well as the people that were close to Gatsby, and society as a whole. Gastby was innocent and he didn't deserve anything bad done to him. He was not even driving the car that killed Myrtle, but he still took the fall for Dasiy, only because it was his car that was seen. Gatsby symbolizes innocence, and how easily people can make assumptions. He is only assumed responsible for the death of Myrtle, and for that and only that, his life was taken.
The book was written before the genocide of jewish people, and therefore does not take on the meaning that most of us think of when we hear holocaust. I think the word in the sentence, “It was after we started with Gatsby toward the house that the gardener saw Wilson’s body a little way off in the grass, and the holocaust was complete” (Fitzgerald 166), is used to describe destruction or slaughter. This word fits with the contents of chapter 8 because Myrtle was killed by Daisy in a hit and run accident. The destructive events of that scene can be described as a holocaust, but I also believe this word is not only used to describe the accident, but the impact and destruction it will have on the lives of Nick and Gatsby
I think Fitgerald uses "and the holocaust was complete" (Fitgerald 162) to describe the events of Chapter 8 because many important people die for virtually no good reason. Mytrle death was probably the most just one since she cheated on her husband, still her death was an accident. Gatsby died for someone elses crime, and Tom died for killing Gatsby who he mistakingly thought killed his wife. I think Fitzgerald's phrase that ended Chapter 8 symbolizes the innocent lives that were taken.
By definition, holocaust means a destruction or slaughter on a mass scale. Chapter eight is a chapter filled with surprises and shocks. The climax also occurs in this chapter. Fitzgerald wraps up the unfortunate series of events by saying, “…the holocaust was complete” (162). Throughout the novel, there is so much scandal and secrecy that no one can really trust anyone else. The affair between Myrtle and Tom along with the love of Daisy and Jay and the competition between Tom and Jay can become overwhelming at times. I think the word holocaust was used to summarize the destruction of reputation and value, on a mass scale.
The word 'holocaust' refers to generally refers to mass, systematic destruction. Gatsby's and Wilson's deaths were the result of a complex, repetitive, almost systematic series of circumstances. In the dramatic scene between Gatsby, Tom and Daisy from chapter seven, so much is revealed and correspondingly unleased, that the characters inevitably drive "on towards death" (Fitzgerald 136) in the following chapter. It was a chain of events that ultimately lead to several deaths.
Nick uses the word "holocaust" to describe what happened in chapter 8 because all of Gatsby's dreams and ideas, which there were many, have died. When Gatsby died, all of his dreams went with him. It was a horrible death because he was so close to achieving his goal of getting back together with Daisy, but was killed by Wilson before it could happen. Nick sums up this chapter when he says, “…and the holocaust was complete” (Fitzgerald 162).
I agree with what you said about Gatsby’s dreams. I never really noticed it before but now I can see how Gatsby has worked so hard in order to accomplish and get to where he was. He grew from having no money whatsoever to spending it every week for parties only to get Daisy’s attention. All of his intentions led back to winning the one person that he loved, however in the end he realized that he couldn’t. It is almost like reality sunk in and Gatsby may have had some idea on what would happen “and perhaps he no longer cared” (161). It is almost as if everything that Gatsby had worked for died away along with him.
Nick uses the word Holocaust to describe the rather deadly series of events in this chapter. The word Holocaust is correlated with the mass murder of a certain group of people. In this case, the group in question would be considered sinners. Myrtle, Tom, Daisy, and Gatsby are all adulterers. Wilson is thought to be a rather religious man, and he connects the eyes of Doctor T.J. Eckleburg to God's enduring presence. Wilson perhaps thinks that it is his calling to destroy what he thinks is corrupt. Also, the use of the term holocaust could be used to describe the death of a way of life. No more parties, no more cheating, no more wealth, and no more hope for finding love.
Nick refers to the entire incident of the story as a holocaust because they were deaths of people that didn’t necessarily deserve them. "It was after we started with Gatsby toward the house that the gardener saw Wilson's body a little way off in the grass, and the holocaust was complete" (137). The entire plot lead to a chaotic, misunderstanding between the characters, yet it could have been resolved had at least one person stood up and cleared the confusion and/or admitted their mistake. This brings us back to the theme of corruption because not a single one of the characters had the soul to blame themselves for the conflicts; instead they blamed other people.
I agree with you, Hannah. I like how you said the plot consisted of a misunderstanding between the characters, because it really did! Also i agree with you on the theme you came up with for this chapter because it fits perfect!
I believe that with the mention of the Holocaust is an interesting term that Fitzgerald uses in order to describe the series of events that take place in chapter 8. Usually when someone thinks of the Holocaust, the massacre of hundreds of innocent lives that took place during WWII comes to mind. I feel that considering what happened to some characters in this chapter, the word Holocaust is a good way to describe it. Myrtle, although she is the cause for Wilson’s distress, was a victim in the car crash that killed her. Wilson, already distress from finding out that his wife was cheating on him, felt that he was obligated to find the person that killed her. Gatsby happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, almost as if “he must have felt that he had lost the old warm world [and] paid a high price for living too long with a single dream” (Fitzgerald 161). The world ‘holocaust’ is used to describe how the characters did not deserve the deaths coming to them; they were ultimately innocent.
I think that the use of the word 'holocaust' for Nick highlights the feeling of Nick towards the situation. We already know that Nick is quite an accepting man, and because of that he saw people differently. Rather than seeing the madman that people labeled Wilson as after the murder, Nick still yet saw a distressed husband of a wife that died unhappy. By using the word holocaust Nick shows the reader how the people that died were not in fact victims of their own doing, but of the circumstances they were placed in. Just as the people during that horrible genocide where victims only of their unfortunate situation.
I believe that Nick uses the word "holocaust" in chapter eight to put emphasis on the deaths of Myrtle, Gatsby, and Wilson. Daisy killed Myrtle, and because of that Tom told on Gatsby and Wilson killed Gatsby before killing himself. Because of the many deaths "the holocaust was complete." (Fitzgerald 170). By saying this, Fitzgerald is saying we have reached the climax and the story is now complete. Looking back at all the murders, holocaust was an appropriate word to explain it because the murders happened to innocent people who were wrongly accused of thing they didn't do.
I totally see your point and agree that Fitzgerald is making a direct statement regarding the climax of the story affected by so many wrongly accused deaths, all under "holocaust". Innocent people did die and Fitzgerald made it a strong point; however, the thing I struggle with, building off of your idea, is what main message are we supposed to grasp. You could reference Nick's introductory quote that you should give someone a chance first. This way we can make the connection that Gatsby was a more complicated character with powerful internal motives about Daisy.
I agree that this part of the story is the conclusion of the climax. The quick deaths are a tell-tale sign that most of the action is finished with and the novel will continue on a gradual decline of action. The word holocaust is used properly in the way that the deaths came in a quick and timely manner.
I agree that it signals the end of the climax of the story and the beginning of the resolution, but what does it bring to the table? There is so much that happened in the actual holocaust and so many symbols within the book that this single, powerful word goes deeper than a signal, but as almost a testimony in itself to the tragic happenings.
In a general sense, holocaust, as we know it today, means something extremely destructive and traumatizing. Although, no one has the for sure say that's what Fitzgerald knew the word as, it is still put in a particular part of the book where everything comes crumbling down and traumatizing to Nick Caraway. In a literal sense, the deaths of Myrtle, Gatsby, and Wilson provoke a lot of emotion out of the narrator and with the readers. These deaths hold much more than the end for the characters. There were dreams, hopes, flaws, and secrets regarding these characters and were only emphasized with the death. This is where the destruction comes in. With Myrtle's death, Tom's ideals and fantasies come to an end, where he realizes he is now just with Daisy. This allows him the opportunity to destroy whatever Daisy and Gatsby have, it can be inferred that when they are talking in the dinning area, where Nick spots them, that Nick talks Daisy into completely dropping Gatsby. This is where Gatsby dream slowly starts to crumbled, which is only emphasized after his death. When Nick realizes people never truly appreciated him, not even the woman who he claimed to love her so much.
I feel that Fitzgerald's uses "holocaust" to connect with a historical holocaust. In a holocaust, a large number of innocent people die due to the actions of others. Myrtle died in a car accident caused by Daisy, then Wilson killed Gatsby, and finally killing himself. Wilson was infuriated because he convinced himself that "God knows what [they've done]... and [they] could fool [him], but [they] can't fool God", or in other words God had wanted who ever had killed Myrtle to die under Wilson's hands (Fitzgerald 159). I also think that the chapter ended with "...and the holocaust was complete" because the last of the good people died, so there was no one left to perish because the task was done (162). Relating these event to a holocaust is Fitzgerald's way of expressing what happened as a purposefully yet tragic event.
I like that you brought up the idea that Fitzgerald was expressing the entire incident as "purposeful yet tragic", similar to the various historical holocausts. There has always been a motive or reason for having such mass genocide, but in this novel we do see the wrong doing; however it could have been resolved in a much better way in my eyes.
Holocaust means a violent mass destruction, and that is exactly what happens in this chapter. Not only is it referring to the deaths of Myrtle, Mr. Wilson, and Gatsby, but also the relationships between those that are still breathing. Any sort of relationship between Jordan and Nick will be a struggle due to how they acted to each other. Also, between Nick and the Buchanans. All the affairs and the dishonesty between them all has strained them and made going back to normal relations impossible. So not only did Fitzgerald mean the deaths but also the relationships.
When you hear holocaust, you think of a horrific killing spree as well as huge devastating scenes. I believe Nick uses the term holocaust as a word to describe all the devastating scenes that came up in chapter 8. For example, Wilson was no doubt very sad and devastated by the death of his wife. The words, " Wilson's body a little way off in the grass, and the holocaust was complete"(162). I think these words were describing the devastating scenes that appear. Wilson was so devastated that his wife died, that once Nick new Wilson died he new the suffering and devastation was over.
In my opinion, Nick used the word "holocaust" in chapter 8 to describe
his emotions and feelings towards about the deathly events which occur during this chapter and use it as a way to conclude and summarize the events. When we think of Holocaust we think of many people dying, however it's all of Gatsby's goals and ambitions which are killed off and in the end the chapter is concluded with "the holocaust was complete." (Fitzgerald 170).
The word holocaust actually means a great destruction or loss of life. There's a cultural connotation now, so that the word directly relates to Nazi Germany and the Jews, but this was written in the 20's, so Hitler was barely gaining power in Germany and Fitzgerald was not talking about the mass murder that would happen years later. I believe that holocaust, even without the cultural connotation holocaust is a very dark, dramatic word, and that's why he used it. He wanted to show the toll that it had on Nick especially. One of the questions we've been asking is "Why does Nick leave New York so quickly?", and even though there's multiple factors that possibly go into that, I think this chapter, and that sentence alone, describe how these events took a toll on Nick emotionally.
I believe that "Holocaust" was used to describe the events that occurred at the end of chapter because of how things played out in regards for Tom. Myrtle, Wilson, and Gatsby were all sources of Tom's conflicts throughout the novel. Now i know that this novel was written well before WWII, but the ideas that fueled the german holocaust can be closely related to this "holocaust" in the novel. For instance, the germans blamed the jews for all of there struggles after WWI and that is what fueled their holocaust, and Myrtle, Wilson, and Gatsby were all sources of Tom's problems which look to be extinguished at the end of chapter 8.
I agree with you Ambreen. I saw it as kind of ending the story which is resembled is his usage of the holocaust being complete. And I also saw the death of the characters as such an unexpected tragedy of the killing of multiple character's, just like the actual Holocaust was the killing of many innocent lives. I also saw it as resembling a chain of sins finally coming to an end the characters die and the others are forced to move on with unanswered questions.
I think Nick uses the term holocaust to describe the events of chapter eight because Wilson, Myrtle, and Gatsby did not deserve or need to die. Even though they all had their flaws, Myrtle's infidelity and Wilson's murder of Gatsby, they did not create a necessity for them to die. They all were living their lives in the moment and didn't completely deserve the fate. This leads into the actual dictionary definition of holocaust, which is defined as the destruction or slaughter on a mass scale. Although there is nothing about the motivation behind the killings it still kind of makes the reader sympathize for the deaths. So it meets the criteria for the definition and kind of matches the feelings towards the holocaust later after the writing of the book. Although this obviously couldn’t be predicted, it fittingly becomes more applicable to the situation with the events of WWII. Relating to making the reader sympathetic, Nick says "perhaps we possessed some deficiency in common which made us subtly unadoptable to Eastern life," (Fitzgerald). This seems kind of like Nick’s way to try and justify the happenings of that situation.
I believe Fitzgerald uses the reference to the holocaust because of the chain of innocent people being killed. All of these deaths revolve around Daisy yet she's barely present enough to react. Tom has an affair on Daisy with Myrtle, and in the end, both Myrtle and her husband die because of it. Also, Gatsy pours his life into being prosperous for Daisy, which she appeals to at first, but then withdraws her proclamation of love for him. He is killed by Wilson because they killed his wife, but it was Daisy who was driving the car. In the end, Daisy doesn't even have the decency to pay her respects to Gatsby at his death. Everything in this story revolves around Daisy, but with a negative outcome.
I think that the word holocaust is a very strategic word to have used by Fitzgerald. Looking back on the historical Holocaust run by Hitler, this word serves so many purposes as to the "deaths" present in the novel. From the emotional death that many characters go through as well as the physical deaths. Using the word holocaust, I think Fitzgerald may have been hinting at one idea that Gatsby is essentially innocent and must pay a price for being who he is. This idea is definitely something that plays into the historical Holocaust with the Jewish people.
I believe the term "haulocost" was specifically used because of all of the killings in this part of the story. I don't think it was used to show the innocence of these deaths I believe the term was more symbolic of the murderers. During the haulocost, the nazis killed for no reason. And chose people at random, similar to this point in the novel. The people were killing out of impulse. They were killing whoever was in their path and didn't think twice about it. Similar to the nazis during the haulocost. When trying to find reasoning for the killings Nick says: "perhaps we possessed some deficiency in common which made us subtly unadoptable to Eastern life," (Fitzgerald).
Kelly I like your comment and I find it interesting. I viewed Nick's reasonaing behind using the word "holocaust" was to portray the innocence of the deaths. However you looked at it at more of a representation of murderers that i didnt think about.
I believe that the term "holocaust" was used not really in relation to that they both have to do with death, but more it is a very hard, depressing time where many things are lost and wrong is being done. The holocaust was a very tragic and awful event in history, and I think this kind of just connects to all that is going on right now, the cheating, the death of myrtle and that no one is confessing. It is all just tragic and horrible experiences going on in the book.
I think that Nick used the term holocaust to describe the events happening in chapter 8 to relate it to the murders of the innocent people who lost their lives over unjust causes during the war. Gatsby died on behalf of the one he loved which is a beautiful way to go. However, now Tom is internally suffering over Myrtle's death because of his affair, and Daisy is suffering over Gatsby. Nobody was with who they truly belonged with in the first place. After the deaths, Gatsby's dream also dies and the reader can see who really loved Gatsby and who was just using him.
When i hear of the Holocaust, I think of the one involving the mass genocide of the Jewish community, but in the context of this chapter, i think it refers to how two people, who had pure intentions, and acted only on those intentions died. Gatsby, and Wilson, did what they did for only pure intentions, out of love. They were the only people who acted for others, not for themselves
Nick uses the word "holocaust to describe the events of chapter 8 because innocent people died over things that were out their control. Specifically, Myrtle was by Daisy's poor driving and Gatsby was killed over the death of Myrtle, which he did not even commit. Neither of the two had done anything wrong to deserve their sudden deaths, yet they ended up suffering the consequences. In Nicks eyes, the recents deaths that he had witnessed has alomst felt comparable to a horrible act like the holocaust.
In this chapter, I think that the term "holocaust" is used in reference to the deaths of innocent people. The chapter ends with "...and the holocaust was complete" (Fitzgerald 162). Many tragic things happened in this chapter, and I think that is why Fitzgerald uses this choice of words. The term "holocaust" also represents something that cannot be controlled, and the events that occurred in this chapter are exactly like that.
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